Ten Years of Cheating

[Whiskeytown]

I'm not really that surprised that no mention has been made of the devastating verdict of the law lords against Rangers 1872-2012 on Wednesday. Tumbleweed blows through this forum at the best of times. But are we as Accies fans happy to sit back and assume the Scottish football authorities will do the right thing and punish old Rangers sufficiently? Thinking back to seasons 2008/9 & 2009/10, Accies were beaten every time we faced old Rangers in the league and were unluckily knocked out of the 2010 Scottish Cup by them after a replay that went to extra time. It would be easy to think that this is just Celtic's fight and all the talk about title stripping, whether justified (personally I think it is) is really nothing to do with us as Accies fans. However, we clearly were cheated too.

Just picking that cup tie from 2010, Kris Boyd, Sasa Papac, Nacho Novo and Steven Davis all featured in the two matches, all recipients of EBTs. Had these "loans", loans that were never paid back, not been part of their remuneration would these players have been at Ibrox or is it likely, as Lord Drummond Young said "if bonuses had not been paid they might well have taken their services elsewhere". The other players that played against us during this period who were on EBTs were Chris Burke, Pedro Mendes and Steven Smith. Perhaps if Rangers had cut their cloth according to their resources and paid players in the regular manner, like every other club in the league, Accies might have fared rather better against them and might have finished a little higher in the league. Even one place higher would have brought in more money. I think we should be writing to Les Gray to insist that we lobby the football authorities to take the hardest line possible against Rangers, after all the club themselves seem to think that they are a continuation of the old club, with no gaps, and yet have the sheer audacity to claim that this judgement does not affect them!

http://rangers.co.uk/news/club/club-statement-55/

I think we are duty-bound to do something here as fans who paid our money in good faith and got shafted by a club that felt the odds weren't sufficiently stacked enough in its favour despite the media and governing bodies being in their pocket and despite the huge advantages they hold over virtually every other club. The one club they didn't hold a huge advantage over was Celtic and to get the better of them the rest of us had to suffer. Well I feel cheated and if our footballing authorities do nothing to redress the balance, like Italian football did over Juventus or the Tour de France over Lance Armstrong, then it will leave a deep stain on our game forever.

[Gaspode]

Couldn't give a flyin fuck to be honest. Live in the present not the past I say, more to worry myself about than all this pish.

[Accies73]

Who cares.. general nonsense for this pish.

[Whiskeytown]

Scottish football summed up in two replies. Knew I could rely on you lot.

[Alexander the Great]

is this accies related, should we have been in spl years before 2008.

[glenthedog]

Have to say that I agree with the others, life is to short and it's time to move on.

As far as I'm concerned the Rangers that exists now started in 2012, and they are a new club, and as such any penalties for pre 2012 Rangers wouldn't apply to them anyway. The reality is that the club is also a business despite all the crap that is talked - the two are the same thing. It has to be a setup like this to enable a club to employ people and conduct financial affairs, so any talk of it simply being a new holding company is nonsense. The original Rangers ceased to be in 2012, and a new club was created that bought the assets of old Rangers, not the history, not the team, just the physical assets.

In reality, I would bet my last dollar that clubs and players all over the world are up to a myriad of tax dodges and scams (just look at Messi), and it just so happens that Rangers were caught. For example, do you really believe that the likes of Wayne Rooney pays full tax on his £250K per week? You then have to ask where does this all end? Tax dodging is rampant in all areas of society and the wealthiest are the worst offenders, and many of the wealthiest just happen to be footballers. Should we start to investigate Man Utd, Liverpool et al to see if they are using any tax scams and then hammer them? For all we know Accies could have used a few tax avoidance techniques over the years, should we be in the dock?

Removing titles from a now defunct team makes no sense and nobody benefits, and you can't go back in time and replay these games. As I've said, life is to short and it's about time Scottish Football looked to the future.

[redandwhite1874]

I agree with previous posters that you can't go back in time but cheating on such an industrial scale just can't be ignored.

For me the best solution is for the tax to be pursued from those who didn't pay it - I would think that is the people who directly benefited; but perhaps the complex tax issues mean they can 'blame' the now defunct company and get away with it.

It doesn't keep me awake at night but if the public purse doesn't get the money back, or an agreed amount, then the titles and cups are absolutely and completely tainted and if pushed I would say the record should show these winners declared null and void.

[Whiskeytown]

For all we know Accies could have used a few tax avoidance techniques over the years, should we be in the dock?

Removing titles from a now defunct team makes no sense and nobody benefits, and you can't go back in time and replay these games. As I've said, life is to short and it's about time Scottish Football looked to the future.

If anything of that sort ever came to light, then yes, we should. Until then all we know for sure is that one club decided to pay their players by a different method to all the other clubs. Going back to that cup tie, is it crazy to suggest that we may have went deep into that competition that year if we had got past Rangers? We finished that season in great form with 8 wins from our final 11 games. The final was Dundee Utd v Ross County.

As for the "now defunct team" from the statement it is clear that the current owners don't see it that way. Same club? OK, then you can't have it both ways, you owe however many tens of millions it is and we're taking you're titles and cups away. Titles and cups must be stripped, they were obtained fraudulently. At the very least an asterisk should appear next to the relevant years. If the Italians can stand up to Juventus, and Rangers crimes were second only to match fixing, (that's from the SFA themselves in 2012), then the SFA and our clubs should grow a pair and do the same.

[WILF]

For me the trophies won by Rangers whilst they adopted fraudulent means of payment to players should be declared null and void. It's disgusting to think of the cheating ways they bought success and while it doesn't keep me up at night history needs to reflect what a sad public fraud they indulged in. The original poster is correct that this is amassive stain on our game in Scotkand and it needs to be retrospectively sorted. We can't replay games but we can address the record books to show that this period in rangers history was a completely corrupt time deliberately designed to cheat the rest of Scottish football and fans from competing on a level playing field.

[glenthedog]

Going back to that cup tie, is it crazy to suggest that we may have went deep into that competition that year if we had got past Rangers?

It's not crazy, but it's not guaranteed we would have a cup run either which is what you seem to suggest. Even if that Rangers team had not been funded by the EBT system, we would still have no way of knowing if we could have beaten whatever squad they put out. In reality even a 'legally' funded Rangers team would normally be more than a match for Accies, and we can't take for granted that a victory would have been ours. And even if we had beaten Rangers, the chances of a long cup run were on a par with the chance of us bombing out in the following round.

If the current Rangers want to delude themselves that they are the same team so be it, because few people elsewhere in Scotland seem to agree with them. My point stands and is valid - the facts state that the current Rangers started in 2012, and any loss if titles would be attributed to the old club which is now defunct - despite what Dave King may say.

As I've already said, life is way to short to be getting so damned angry about something that applies to a club that no longer exists, and in turn this level of anger has no impact or benefit to our club. Tax dodging and cheating the system is rife across society, and other clubs and players will be utilising this to full benefit I can assure you, and just because they haven't been caught doesn't make it OK.

Perhaps you need to take the energy derived from this anger and channel it elsewhere - I believe Accies are looking for someone with some drive to take the website forward, perhaps you could volunteer?

[redandwhite1874]

I think in terms of football, the SFA etc; that the position is that it is the same football club but being run via a separate business. Notwithstanding that I think Rangers the football entity are still wishing to alter this perspective whenever it suits them - which to be honest is another reason why I think something has to be done.

[Whiskeytown]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons ... ware/10066

glenthedog, I already stated in the thread that I cannot help the club, if they are really looking for help(I have my doubts) due to my circumstances and also not being at all techy. My anger is till channelled in this particular direction and as you can see I am far from alone!

[redandwhite1874]

Rangers latest lecture on what's best for Scottish football and how they won't accept any further investigation and we should move on makes up my mind. Throw the book at them